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Joe Joyce wrote on Thu, Mar 16, 2006 01:08 AM UTC:
Sam, I believe you have crossed the Rubicon into wargame design with your
game proposal in CoT. You have all pieces moving each turn (in what
order?) and ranged combat with odds for success, a hex board and terrain;
all you need is to call it a wargame, and maybe add a combat results table
for all 'combats' between 2 opposing pieces, not just the ranged ones. I
would recommend to anyone HG Wells 'Little Wars' for a fascinating look
at wargaming from some of the history and how to of wargaming to pictures
of an influential author on hands and knees in miniature battle scenes.
It's not quite chess. I see a line between chess variants and wargames
that is crossed several times in Crossing the Rubicon.

Sam Trenholme wrote on Thu, Mar 16, 2006 02:10 AM UTC:
The Wikipedia article for chess variants, at one point said 'The broad definition of chess variants is so universal, it may include nearly any abstract battle game or war game'. That said, at which point does a variant become a wargame? Good question. The answer depends on who you ask.

I think we're crossing the line once we add dice rolls. I also think that line is crossed when the opening setup is asymmetrical or when there is hidden information ('fog of war').

The reason for having one move all of their pieces (in any order they choose) in a single turn is to make the game impervious to traditional computer analysis.

- Sam


Gary Gifford wrote on Thu, Mar 16, 2006 05:39 PM UTC:
In reading over issues regarding Glinski's Hexagonal Chess, my Catapults
of Troy, and Sam T's not-yet-in existence 'Crossing the Rubicon'
(including the well written Joe Joyce wargaming comment)... Sam now has
enough ideas and enough distance from Catapults of Troy that I feel I
should step out of this scene.  Also, in regard to all pieces moving at
once [on a side], I recommend looking at the game 'Conquest' by Donald
Benge.  In Donald's game you have Elephants, Chariots, Ships, etc.  His
later variant includes Catapults and Siege Engines.  Anyway, in that game
you can move several pieces on a turn.  Mr. Benge and I corresponded for
about a year in regards to Conquest and we tried to get it going in
over-the-board play in Ohio.  It didn't happen, no fault of the game
though... just too many couch potatoes in these parts... chess has even
dried up in my neck of the woods.  Anyway, back to the subject, the
Rubicon endeavor could end up being an effort to combine elements from
games of Glinski, Benge, and myself.  I tried a similar 'combo-concept'
when I created Shanghi Palace Chess.  Though I liked the results, many
others complained about it... I sure took a beating in the CV comments. 
May Sam's efforts go more smoothly than mine... I truly wish him well.

Sam Trenholme wrote on Fri, Mar 17, 2006 03:26 AM UTC:
I just want to let you know that I liked the ideas presented in Shangai Palace, and that the game looked like a fun one to play. I think it is a shame that Zillions plays it so dang poorly, and that people were so hard on it. I really like the idea of a game where some pieces can drop and other pieces can not be dropped. Perhaps we can have a tame chessgi where only rooks and bishops can be dropped. Of course, it's very trickly to compare the value of a piece that can be dropped with a piece that can not be dropped.

Another idea: Have it so that a piece can only be dropped with certain pieces capture the piece in question.

I think I have some interesting ideas in 'Crossing the Rubicon', but I think I want to get several dozen mating positions for schoolbook, and a computer program that can play it better than Zillions--my current plan is to take the guts out of ChessV and make it a Schoolbook playing engine, and hack up Winboard and Xboard to play Schoolbook instead of FIDE Chess (I once hacked xboard to play Grand Chess, so I know this can be done).

Once that is done, maybe I'll consider a variant besides Schoolbook. There are a zillion variants out there; just not enough what I would consider fully-developed variants.

It's a shame there isn't as much interest in board games as there used to be in Ohio. I think this is because people are playing online games instead. I never went for online games; if I am playing someone at Chess and losing, I want to be 100% certain that my opponent is not cheating so I can feel that he is winning fairly. I can never do that on the internet. I think an essential human element is lost when people interact with computer screens instead of real live people.

- Sam


Gary Gifford wrote on Fri, Mar 17, 2006 11:05 AM UTC:
Sam commented that - 'It's a shame there isn't as much interest in board
games as there used to be in Ohio. I think this is because people are
playing online games instead.'  
GKG response: I need to clarify, it is really the 'my neck of the woods'
part of Ohio (east of Cleveland, along the Lake).  Other areas of Ohio:
Cleveland (south of it and west), Akron, Dayton, Columbus, and Cincinnatti
seem to still be doing well at chess.  I managed to run a city club in my
area from 1996 up to 2005.  Even had rated USCF tournaments.... the last
one had 3 people sign up.  And the city's support for chess went
belly-up.

Sam also wrote: 'I never went for online games; if I am playing someone
at Chess and losing, I want to be 100% certain that my opponent is not
cheating so I can feel that he is winning fairly. I can never do that on
the internet. I think an essential human element is lost when people
interact with computer screens instead of real live people.'  
GKG response: I certainly understand.  I had actually quit playing on-line
and e-mail games for that very reason.  Then I was happy to find Chess
Variants and I thought, 'Great, games that computers can't play.'  But
then I found out that lots of games could be played by computers.... even
my own Pillars of Medusa (my first game)... I believe that the only true
fair games are the ones we can play over-the-board, face-to-face, in one
sitting (no adjournments).  But with players scattered all over the world,
we simply must be appreciative on the positive aspects of computers and
games which are:
1) they provide a means of playing against other people, all over the
planet
2) they provide a good training arena
3) they make for easier write up of game literature (chess books, etc)
4) they allow for the creation/presentation of complicated games, that
seem to need computer intervention in order to enforce actions that the
human-mind can find time consuming.  Time Travel Chess, for example, is
well at home on the computer...without it, the re-visiting of the past
becomes more time consuming and prone to error.
5) With this CV site (and possibly others like it) the computer provides a
means for us to quickly create and share new games. They allow for game
communications (talking) between players and developers, thus speeding up
game evolution.
I think these positives highly outweigh the one negative, which is that
some opponents might sit back and enjoy a burgandy, and while you think
you are playing against them, are instead playing against a silicon
monster.

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Sun, Mar 19, 2006 05:02 AM UTC:
Although it might be hard to tell whether an online opponent is cheating at
Chess, it is much easier for many Chess variants. When there is no strong
software available for playing a game, that's a good guarantee that your
opponent isn't cheating. In fact, I prefer to play some games online,
rather than against my computer, just because I know I can find a stronger
opponent in a human. Also, in my own case, I find that playing against a
computer lacks the human element of playing against someone online. It
isn't quite the same as playing against someone in person, but it does
let me play against people I would otherwise never even meet, and that's
a good thing.

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