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Zillions of GamesA computer program
. Game package for Windows that allows you to play nearly any abstract board game or puzzle in the world.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joseph DiMuro wrote on Mon, Jul 1, 2002 09:35 PM UTC:
I have a Visa debit card in one hand and a mouse in the other. I'm all set to (finally) purchase an unlock code for Zillions of Games. But before I do, I was wondering; the unlock code is sent by e-mail, right? I ask because I'm switching apartments in a month and a half, and anything they mail me afterwards might be returned to sender. (I'm serious about this; that's the way things work here at USC. I just have to live with it...)

Doug Chatham wrote on Mon, Jul 1, 2002 10:40 PM UTC:
Joseph, <p> Yes, according to <a href='http://www.zillions-of-games.com/demo/order.html'>http://www.zillions-of-games.com/demo/order.html</a> the unlock key is sent by email. That is how I got my unlock key and apparently that is still how they do it.

Joseph DiMuro wrote on Tue, Jul 2, 2002 03:38 PM UTC:
You mean it was on the website the whole time and I didn't see it?
Aarrgh!!! :-) Oh well.

Thanks for the help!

Mike Nelson wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 07:42 PM UTC:
One area where improvement is needed: Zillions overvalues choice of pawn promotion. Clearly a FIDE pawn is worth more than a pawn which can only promote to Queen--but equally clearly the difference is small. Zillions rates a pawn at around 1850 in FIDE chess or in Chess with Different Armies when both players are using the same army (in either case a pawn would have four promotion choices). But in CWDA with each player using a different army, Zillions rates the pawn at around 2500. This can only be due to having eight promotion options intstead of four. Clearly, a pawn with eight possible promotions in more valuable than a pawn with four, but equally clearly the difference is nowhere near the 35% that Zillions thinks.

M. Howe wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 08:46 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
Yes, I've noticed that piece ratings are often a problem with Zillions. After a discussion on this topic with Peter Aronson and Jeff Mallett I have started forcing piece values for the variants I'm working on (one should be ready soon; the other, with lots of very unorthodox pieces needs more testing and will take a few weeks). Basically, you can artifically inflate the values of any piece you want. And therefore, if a pawn is overvalued by a certain percentage, you can inflate the values of all other pieces by the same percentage. Well, you can come close, anyway -- you don't have absolutel fine control using this workaround. I've got to get back to a home project I'm working on now, so I can't give all the details of how I'm doing this here, but if anyone is interested they can email me and I'll spell it all out -- it's pretty easy stuff, actually.

Peter Aronson wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 09:28 PM UTC:
I will note that figuring out what pieces are worth in a variant in the first place is often a thornier issue than trying to manipulate Zillions into having the values you want. That's why I have never attempted to tune the values in Interweave or Rococo.

M. Howe wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 11:16 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
I agree with Peter that deciding on piece values can be a very difficult proposition, and I certainly claim no special expertise on the matter. I usually take the word of the experts, like Betza and Schmittberger, on such matters, whenever I can. But sometimes it's clear between two pieces which one should have the greater value, and if Zillions is willing to give up strong pieces for weak ones, then getting them into the right relationship is a good thing, even if it's not a precise evaluation. For example, Zillions thinks a Leo (queen-moving cannon-taking piece) is worth as much as a queen, whereas it is clearly worth less. So in my variant that uses that piece, I boosted everything except the Leo so that the pieces have the correct value RANK if not necessarily the correct value. In other cases, of course, it is much harder to decide even what the rank is, and Ultima and its variants would be a very good example of such a situation.

Ben Good wrote on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 11:33 PM UTC:
i have almost no experience coding zrfs, but i do look at zillions' values, and altho aronson is correct in saying it's generally difficult to tell what the right numbers should be, i have seen some cases where clearly the zillions values are wrong. the most extreme example was one they discussed on the yahoo board, where zillions considered betza's piece the ghost - which moves to any empty square on the board but never captures - worth something like 9 queens, when in fact betza considered it worth less than a pawn. the problem is that zillions gives too much value to how the piece moves w/o considering how it captures.

Mike Nelson wrote on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 02:06 PM UTC:
Michael -- I would like to see the details of your method for inflating piece values, but I don't have your e-mail address. If it is too lengthy to post here, you can email me at [email protected]

M. Howe wrote on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 03:03 PM UTC:
I have the time to post it, now.  I'd also like to point out that the
method is probably more Peter Aronson's and Jeff Mallett's than mine
(except I think for the unlinked squares method), since I would not found
it if I had not discussed my concerns with them.

In the game definition section, put in (turn order (White real-move)
(Black real-move))

Then, in each piece's definition, put in
(moves
   (move-type real-move)
   (leap2 n ne)
etc., putting in what definitions you normally would for that piece. 
Then, still in the same moves section put in
   (move-type pseudo-move)
   (add add add)
the more 'add's you put in, the greater the inflated piece value.  And
because they are pseudo-moves and not real-moves, they will never actually
be generated.  If a single 'add' inflates the value too much, you can put
in duplicates of the moves used to define the piece.

In fact, if you stick to using only duplicates of the piece's definition,
you don't need the two move-types at all.  In my orthochess zrf, for
example, I have added a single extra (leap2 n ne) to the move section of
the knight so that Zillions now values it as almost worth a bishop.   I
use the two move-types in my highly unorthodox variant because I often
need to put in long strings of 'add's to adjust piece values by huge
amounts and it's easier than duplicating long strings of piece moves.

You should not put in any moves that are not either simple 'add's or
duplicates of the piece's move, though, even if you are using the two
move-types, because of a bug I found and that was confirmed by Jeff. 
Zillions will look at the pseudo-move definitions when determining check,
even though the pieces can not actual make those moves because of the
turn-order.

Another method you can try is to create an extra file on your board and
then unlink the squares.  In your board def macro, add a /z to the files
string and then unlink the squares with (unlink z1 z2 z3 z4 z5 z6 z7 z8). 
Now in your pseudo-move section, you can put in things like (z1 add) or if
that adds too much value you can try (z1 (if empty? add)) which seems to
add less value than a simple add.  Experiment.  And with the unlinked
squares method you don't have to worry about the check bug since the king
can never be on z1 because it would take a pseudo-move to get there and a
pseudo-move will never be generated.  This method might give you more
flexibility because you don't have to stick to simple 'add's or duplicate
moves.

I hope those who read this can make use of it.

Regards,
Mike

Peter Hatch wrote on Wed, Sep 4, 2002 03:57 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
It appears that if you duplicate moves to increase value it then takes longer to calculate moves, as it generates the duplicate moves and checks their value each time through. Using the second move type doesn't seem to have this problem, so I think it is a better method.

Javier wrote on Wed, Dec 11, 2002 05:45 PM UTC:Good ★★★★
A demo of version 2 of Zillions is now available.

(zzo38) A. Black wrote on Wed, Aug 3, 2005 03:43 AM UTC:Poor ★
I don't like this program all that much, I would like it if it were cost less, less user-friendly, less graphical, and more programmable. One thing I would like is to be able to use a ActiveX object in Visual Basic to send and receive moves.

Christine Bagley-Jones wrote on Wed, Aug 3, 2005 06:11 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
brilliant program :))

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, Aug 3, 2005 11:18 AM UTC:
You would like it to be less user-friendly and less graphical? Are you being serious?

Matthew Montchalin wrote on Wed, Aug 3, 2005 08:21 PM UTC:
Speaking for myself, I have yet to try out 'Zillions of Games' but if there were a truly minimal graphics version available (using ASCII graphics, for instance), I might give it a shot.

Greg Strong wrote on Wed, Aug 3, 2005 08:57 PM UTC:
Why is less graphical better than more graphical?

Tony Quintanilla wrote on Wed, Aug 3, 2005 09:13 PM UTC:
It seems to me that the whole idea of Zillions of Games was to create a program that has some intelligence, that is able to play a large and growing number of perfect information games with the same engine, and that is suited for a broad market. They succeeded. A side benefit is that by using simple, text-based rules files, new games can be programmed by the dedicated user. I fail to see why nice graphics, which appeal to the 'broad market' (including me), and 'user friendly' interaction is a problem. These features just make using the program more enjoyable. Surely computing power is no longer an issue? Zillions was not designed primarily for programmers, but for people that play games. Again, its programmability is a side benefit -- and a great benefit. Cost? Well, it's not cheap, but it's a fair price for what you get. In fact, I wonder if the market is already saturated, because improvements seem to have stopped. That's too bad.

(zzo38) A. Black wrote on Thu, Aug 4, 2005 03:45 AM UTC:
If the algorithms, information, and programming manual were public on site
somewhere I could find, anyone could program their own program to emulate
Zillions. I would use it, even if it cost some money to use. Maybe if they
don't want all lose money, they could make a license to say 'You can't
distribute programs that use this algorithms because is patented', but I
disagree with the fact that you can patent computer programs anyway.

Matthew Montchalin wrote on Thu, Aug 4, 2005 05:34 AM UTC:
I think it's a 'bandwidth' question.  Minimal graphics means maximum
throughput, whereas maximum graphics means minimal throughput, especially
for those of us who depend on Internet Service from an IP, and find
ourselves unpleasantly slowed down from the lag associated with a
webbrowsing reeling from complex graphics directives, GIF or JPEG
displays, and so on.

Now, I don't speak for zz038, but I do think it's wonderful that
Zillions of Games exists; it is wonderful that it can play so many games.

It's just that, speaking for myself, I prefer minimal graphics to
maximum
graphics.  Internet seems to run faster the leaner you make it.

Greg Strong wrote on Thu, Aug 4, 2005 05:41 PM UTC:
But Zillions of Games runs on your computer, not from a website. There are no bandwitdh issues at all. Even if you use it to play against other people on the net, it is still not transmitting the graphics; just the moves.

Matthew Montchalin wrote on Fri, Aug 5, 2005 05:39 AM UTC:
Uh, what kind of PC is Zillions of Games supposed to run on, anyway?  Are
you sure it will run on mine?  Is it DOS compatible?  My PC is a used one
from 1988, worth maybe $10 to 20 bucks or so.

Christine Bagley-Jones wrote on Fri, Aug 5, 2005 09:53 AM UTC:
lol

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Fri, Aug 5, 2005 05:27 PM UTC:
Zillions of Games 1.0 runs on Windows 95 and up, and Zillions of Games 2.0 runs on Windows 98 and up. If you have an old MS-DOS computer that doesn't run Windows, Zillions of Games won't run on your computer.

(zzo38) A. Black wrote on Sat, Nov 17, 2007 11:12 PM UTC:
Zillions of Games isn't a good program! (The company that sells it is just greedy and want to get paid more, and you can't do it with the keyboard anyways, you have to use mouse, even when you do not want to.) Maybe I (and even other people as well) should work on make a free/open-source (such as GNU GPL) version of Zillions that can read the same ZRF files, and if it is open-source then it can even be modified for any use, even to add more commands and to make a improvement as needed. I tried to make a tsume-shogi game but it doesn't do very well, it says it is stalemate even when it isn't and it doesn't make a good move, either. I want to make a new one in open-source so that it is better and can work on Linux as well, and is freedom also. Then the program can be less user-friendly and more useful in terms of adding the commands that is useful and not doing wrong thing with the program every time.

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