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I can see arguements for both concepts; i.e., Mr. Smith's idea that the Barios actually need to be moved to be considered as 'defined' and the other idea (which CarlosCarlos and I are using) that indicates a piece only need to be known. So far I see no problems with the rules that CarlosCarlos and I have employed. As far as getting down to 2 Rooks, 2 Bishops, or 2 Knights, players would simply avoid that for as long as possible to keep the identities secret. In the Penswift vs. CarlosCarlos game we both now have 2 different Barios as our last Barios. [Of course, if we had a Bario of ours captured we could each get down to 1 undefined Bario... but when it moves the one in the capture Zone would be revealed to prevent it from entering the game]. Perhaps there should be 2 variations of Bario? (1) Bario,Logical Deduction Variant and (2) Bario, Quantom Variant {of course, the names could be changed). The course of time would tell us whether one was desireable over the other, or inform us perhaps, that each was equally enjoyable. Regardless of which variant (or both) surface, one thing is certainly true. The rules themselves are of a Bario language. Full of potential, but remaining undefined, or atleast defined with definitions not agreed upon by all. So, what will the final established rules be? Mr. Smith, I salute your logic. I think we are seeing the same things in Bario, just disagreeing on how our observations should be used to develop a set of standard rules.