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Diagram testing thread[Subject Thread] [Add Response]

V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Feb 19, 2017 10:59 PM UTC:

I also submitted a variant (Chess on an Infinite Plane using classical chess pieces) on 2/16, but haven't seen or heard anything yet.

I'm interested in seeing yours:)

Chess on an Infinite Plane[Subject Thread] [Add Response]

V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 21, 2017 06:51 AM UTC:

Hi Aurelian,I'm not sure why my name shows up with question marks. I see it that way too.

Btw, did you finish any more work with Enap? Are you testing it by playing for real, or by testing it some other way?

V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 21, 2017 03:35 PM UTC:

Oh that's cool!

I noticed in the notes you said you only played one game. Can you make the engines play multiple times (like 50 games)? If you can play a game cpu vs. cpu why not a bigger study?

Also, if you're moving around pawns to balance the game, have you thought about adding two pawns to each side? For example, you give one side pawns in weak positions (a and h?) and the other side strong (c and f?). This MIGHT let the setup be symmetrical (althought that doesn't really have a benefit except for aesthetics).

I think it's cool that you are doing experimentation to improve the game. I'm not sure how much fine-tuning is possible. You might be able to get it so that it is so balance that white's first move advantage is gone. (that means one side will always get the knightwa.

Unfortunatelly for me, I don't think there are any engines that play chess on an infinite board. So I can't test "Chess on an Infinite Plane" with an engine. But my games with three real people are going well (I think I'm winning in won, near tie in another, and losing one).

I am starting to study a new version. It might have a few more pieces, but in certain situations TWO pieces can be moved in one turn. For example, moving two pawns in one move, moving two bishops together when they are adjacent to each other, or moving two pieces if they are still in their original positions but engaged in different localized battles. My goal is to help the opening game move faster, and add new dynamics.

When playing by correspondence (1 move per day), I think a 50-100 move game is OK, but if the game last more than 200 moves that might be getting too long.

Suggestions by anyone are welcome!:)

V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 21, 2017 04:19 PM UTC:

Ok great, keep me updated if you find a new variation of Enap!

Like I said before, I really like the name, and the simplicity of the initial setup is very elegant I think.

In fact, I think the name, and the game match each other very well.

Here is the setup I am considering for my next game. It uses the "huygens" which is a piece which jumps prime numbers of squares. That's the piece with a triangular outer shape and cross-shaped cutout (from icons by Furgus Duniho).

A more detailed description of the huygens is here .

Thanks for sharing info about Enap!

V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 21, 2017 04:43 PM UTC:

Enep, that's right! I'm very sorry.

The huygens will add more trouble if anyone wants to make a chess engine that uses it. For one thing, the list of all prime numbers is hard to describe (they aren't even all known). But if played in a normal game, it should not be hard to use as long as it doesn't move far.

The largest known prime number is [2^(74,207,281) − 1] which has 22,338,618 digits. If anyone wants to move a hugens farther than that, first they will have to prove the number is prime. I won't wait for any player who wants to make such a move!:)

For Enep, I'll remember "Enhanced knight - extra pawn"!

Diagram testing thread[Subject Thread] [Add Response]

V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Feb 23, 2017 02:30 AM UTC:

Hi Kevin, how do you call that 4D? (are you refering to 4 dimensions)?

The 55x55 is a large 2D format. Then you cut out sections to give you islands, which can be considered

groups of 2D, so now you have 3D. Where does the 4D come from?

Btw, the pieces are small in your diagram, but I think it would still be playable. These topics are interesting to me, because I'm continuing to explore the possibilities of playing chess on very large and infinite-size chessboards. But there is a point when pieces can be moved too far, and could not be displayed on a single image. (but I have found no reason anyone would want to move pieces extremelly far from their setup positions anyways).

Also, how did you find the code to use to select the green and green/yellow hexagons? Just trial and error, or is there a methodical way to select specific colors?

Keep up the good work! And let me know where the 4D comes from.:)

V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Feb 23, 2017 03:59 PM UTC:

Thanks Kevin, It looks like you've made many variations of hexagonal-based board shapes. They are very interesting. That's also a good tip to use the "-" to block out squares, to make even more interesting board patterns. I've thought of doing that in an initial diagram, to add "walls" or other obstructions in a chessboard, but have not done so yet.

As for experimenting with large diagrams, I took a previous image and "zoomed-out" to a 50x50 grid. This represents a previous game set-up (it is not new), but it is an expanded view which can be used in the event pieces "spread out" during play.

Good work on your diagrams and, thanks for all the tips you've been sharing:)

The Huygens Chess Piece[Subject Thread] [Add Response]

V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Feb 24, 2017 12:05 AM UTC:

The Huygens Chess Piece

The huygens is a chess piece that jumps in a rook's direction any prime number of squares (2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23,...). I use it in the chess variant Trappist-1.

"H" - Huygens

In some games it may be limited to a minimum jump so that it is not a close attacker. The following are my estimates of the huygens' value based on its minimum jump:

Allowed Jumps - Estimated Piece Value:
2, 3, 5, 7, 11...(value = rook + 2 pawns)
3, 5, 7, 11... (value = rook+)
5, 7, 11... (value = bishop+)

There are an infinite number of prime numbers, so in theory a huygens can jump infinitely far. However, not all prime numbers are known. The largest known prime number is [2^(74,207,281) − 1] (which has 22,338,618 digits). Although a huygens can jump infinitely far, when playing chess, the players must declare the specific square that a piece is to be moved to. So this limits the distance that a huygens can travel in a single move. It is the player that moves the huygens that carries the burden to prove that a number is prime. (If his opponent requests it, he would need to cite the source showing the leaping distance is a prime number).

An example of a large legal move would be:

Hb[(2,996,863,034,895â€Šx 2^(1,290,000) + 1], Chris K. Caldwell. "The Top Twenty Twin Primes"

In an actual game there would not normally be any reason to move a piece this far, because then it would lose its targets, and especially its ability to create forks in different directions. But I think it's good to make sure all the rules of a game and its pieces are carefully defined, so there will be no questions or points of contention once a game starts.

The huygens (white) is shown in the diagram below on square b2, and its moves are indicated with red symbols. This diagram is a 50x50 grid, but when played in Chess on an Infinite Plane, the huygens can jump to numerous other squares outside the boundary of this diagram.

A link to Trappist-1 is here:

Trappist-1

The birth of two variants: Apothecary chess 1 & Apothecary chess 2[Subject Thread] [Add Response]

V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Feb 25, 2017 01:20 PM UTC:

Where do we read about the fool or the game it is used in? I could not find any info about apothecary chess. Did you post any info any about it yet?

V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Feb 25, 2017 04:38 PM UTC:

@Aurelian Florea

Yes of course I'd like to see the game idea. I thought you were asking us to speculate on the fool without knowing what it does. Now you and Greg explained it. That's the same piece sometimes called the Joker.

Honestly, I like the name Joker more. The fool is used in Courier Chess as a not-very-strong piece (i.e. "foolish"). I think the Joker sounds better because Jokers are unpredicatable.

Btw, here is an example game with a joker (with images for the full game): Bulldog chess-angel joker game .

Regardless, your game sounds interesting! The Fool/Joker piece always add a lot of fun "new strategy" to a game.:)

V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Feb 25, 2017 06:29 PM UTC:

The game is finished, but if you want to see of an example of the Joker's moves (right in the middle of a complexÂ position) you can check move 28 and 29. It might give some insight to the joker's value:

28...Bf7Â (black bishop attacks joker)
29.Jxf7Â Â (joker gets the bishop's move and captures the bishop)
29...Qxf7 (white captures the black joker in return)

This shows joker may indeed be about the average of the other pieces.
Black willing to give up bishop for joker. (calculating joker is worth more).
White sacrifices joker to capture bishop (calculating bishop is worth more).

So joker must be somewhere in the middle. :)

You have a good combination of game pieces. I also like the archbishop and chancellor. I can't wait to see the graphics you use.

V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Feb 27, 2017 04:30 PM UTC:

How big is the board? You mention rank 10, so I assume it's 10x10?

You have a lot of new pieces, some fairly powerful such as griffin, aanca, chancellor, and archbishop. But it's hard for me to envision without seeing the board set-up.

How long did the game(s) last? If you have a joker (or fool) I think a slow game might be more fun, because it lets the players put more thought on when to move and not move the joker. But if the game progresses too fast, the joker may not have had time to be used strategically. That's just my theory, but of course I don't have an engine that can play this game. It's impressive that Greg is programming chessV as fast as you are inventing new games.

Btw, (Greg), I think you are right that a position is not repeated if the joker has a different move. The repetition rule should only be applied as a last resort. If the game has changed status in any way, the players should be left to battle it out.

V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Feb 27, 2017 10:45 PM UTC:

Hi Aurelian,

I didn't know that you also program code for playing chess (or at least adding code to play new variants). That's pretty cool.

It looks like a good starting setup for Apothecary games. I like how the king and queen are in mirror symmetry (same as normal chess) but other sections have rotational symmetry (white's empty squares on h and i, and black's on b and c). It looks like a good set-up with good piece density. (I didn't study the coin-toss system yet to see what other starting positions are possible).

I'm not sure what you mean by beta test. Do you mean testing Apothecary by playing an on-line game? I wouldn't mind playing a variant game on-line by correspondence. Can that be done here, or only at the Game Courier section? If there is a way to play I might like to try. I just don't know if that can be done here. At chess.com we often play by showing a diagram after each move which is pretty easy to do.

But helping with beta testing is definitely possible - I just need to know what you mean.:)

Chess on an Infinite Plane (hidden). Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 28, 2017 10:11 PM UTC:

Hi Aurelian,

The hawks and pawns in the rearward flanks are called "jäger units". They probably will not be useful in the opening or early mid-game, because these pieces do not move quickly. But the added material can be helpful later to help force a checkmate, or as added material to help break a game that is otherwise tending towards a draw. (Like a baseball game going into extra innings). As an illustration:

If we label the main frontal formation as "M", and the jäger units as "J1" and "J2", a SHORT game might go like this:

white "M" plays against black "M". Black wins (for example).

But if a game is near tied in the mid-game, it might finish like this:

white "M" plays against black "M". Neither side achieves an advantage, so:
white "J1" plays against black "J1". White wins with a checkmate by chancellor, rook, and hawk (for example).

But if a game is STILL tending towards a draw even after long play, a game might finish like this:

white "M" plays against black "M". Neither side creates an advantage, so:
white "J1" plays against black "J1". Neither side still has an advantage, so:
white "J2" plays against black "J2". Black wins with checkmate by a hawk and two promoted pawns (for example).

In actual play, a game will never play with such distinct delineation. A real game may go more like this:

white "M, J1, J2" play against black "M, J1, J2", and all the pieces are in a big complex mess. One side finds a checkmate and wins (for example).

In actual games, I have no idea how often experienced players will draw. The game is complicated enough that I think the draw rate will probably be about the same as normal chess (and just as in normal chess, the result of perfect play is unknown).

I'm currently not in any games with the huygens, but would like to play it once I finish one of my current games. I would also like to try ChessV (and watch some Apothecary games) as soon as I finish at least one game I'm currently in.

Thanks for your comments. :)

💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Mar 3, 2017 09:54 PM UTC:

Thanks Aurelian,
That was just posted yesterday? I watched it and read some of the comments. I'll have to read everything again to understand it better. The video makes the assumption that chess is never a draw but they didn't explain how the rules are changed to enforce this. One comment someone added says for example if it is your turn and you have no legal moves, you lose. This is normally a stalemate including in "Chess on an Infinite Plane".

I think this video and all the comments make infinite chess seem more complicated than it really is. It's really not too different than normal chess. Good play means both players will try to control the center of the chessboard, so there's a tendency for pieces to move inward (not drift away). However attacks from behind are possible, and you need a few more pieces to create a checkmate. So pieces may temporarily move outward, but there's no reason to ever go extremelly far.

However, in the version with the huygens, it is mathematically possible for things to get a little more complicated I think. Anyway, thanks so much for sharing the link. I will definitely view it again and read the comments to make sure I understand it. :)

The birth of two variants: Apothecary chess 1 & Apothecary chess 2[Subject Thread] [Add Response]

V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Mar 4, 2017 06:13 PM UTC:

I like these rules a lot, but I have some comments:

Why does the losing side get a point? This player hasn't demonstrated anything, not even able to get a draw (of any type). A player who offers to play, then resigns after one move would get a point, just wasting everyone's time.

Although rare, should drawing twice be equivalent to one win and one loss? If so, a draw should be 4.5 points. If playing from black, a draw should definitely be considered at least half a win (especially if the win is from white).

Last, I'm not sure about the 3-fold repetition. I don't think this should let the game move to the point system. If the superior side knows he/she is better, then this player should be required to keep playing to prove he has a better position. He can do this by not moving into a repeated position for the third time.

I believe the five tiers would then be:

9 - win
6 - advantage (stalemate - superior side, or point count 4 or more)
4.5? - draw (point count is 3 or less)
3 - disadvantage (stalemate - inferior side)
0 - loss

(only the 150 moves with no progress leads to the point system)

I hate to bring up so many comments, but I like your idea and just want to make sure everything is considered thoroughly, especially if any tournament is held using the system.

Good work!:)

V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Mar 5, 2017 05:48 PM UTC:

Hi George,

I wrote about the Huygens in a comment, but it's not an entry in the CVP "Piececlopedia". I might like to submit it later, but I already have one game waiting for review (it's called "Trappist-1" which is the Infinite Plane game using the Huygens chess piece). I've heard about the Fibonacci series but not Lucas. What is the Lucas about?

Hi Aurelian,

I agree repetitions in chess can be complicated, and often difficult to discern if it should be a draw, or if one side is better. Usually it doesn't have to occur in chess. There's always another move, and if not, then it's a stalemate.

So if there is a repetition opportunity, one player or the other can simply make a different move. Repeating is only an advantage for the side that believes he/she is weaker and wants to get a draw. The side that is strong should PROVE he is stronger by not repeating, and win the game.

So neither player should be allowed to jump to the point system and get an "advantage" by repeating a position. If one player believes he is stronger, he should be requried to keep playing to prove his advantage. But if he doesn't think his position is strong enough, then he can repeat the position, but should get no credit for this. He only gets a "draw" for essentially "Giving Up".

(Basically my theme is players must keep playing if they can, but if they give up, then they get no credit).

Let me know what your think. Either way is OK, but it's just my opinion.

Regards, :)

Chess on an Infinite Plane (hidden). Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Mar 8, 2017 05:39 PM UTC:

Thank Fergus,

I changed the title and now it looks better and more simple. The game introduction still mentions that it uses your piece shapes. I like the abstract icons a lot, and for this game where it's necessary to display a large board area, it's easy to identify the pieces even when you "zoom out".

I also have another game which is played on an infinite board called "Trappist-1". It also uses your piece icons, including one of the shapes for the huygens (a piece which jumps prime numbers of squares).

The game is pending review, and I hope it's posted on this site soon.

Regards :)

Trappist-1. Chess game with no boundaries. includes Guard, Chancellor, Hawk, and Huygens. () [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Mar 8, 2017 09:41 PM UTC:

Hi Fergus, Thanks for your comments.

About the piece images, I think the ones used make a lot of sense, because they match your abstract styles very well. The orthodox pieces all follow the normal shapes in your set. But since some unusual pieces are used, I selected piece shapes that best represent what they do.

For the guard (or "mann") I used the circle shape with triangle, to indicate it moves both orthogonally, and diagonally. It is a very basic shape just as the king (which has the same moves).

Your set does not have a hawk, so I used the tall triangle shape because it appears "sharp", just as a hawk has sharp talons and beak.

Also, there is no huygens, so I chose the pyramid shape piece with the "+" shape cut-out. The pyramid is a symbol of mystery, just like prime numbers, and the "+" shape represents the orthogonal moves of the huygens.

I hope you'll agree that these images are good choices for both "Trappist-1" and "Chess on an Infinite Plane".

Last, on the topic of playing on an Infinite Plane, a player can move a piece 50-million squares away. There is no problem with that (although the play would be questionable at best). If someone does this, the piece simply is not shown in the chess diagram. There is only a supplemental note added to the game status such as "white rook is in square (50,000,000, 2)". (file and rank of the piece). But in actual play, I don't believe there is ever any reason to move a piece this far away because there is nothing of interest so far out. The piece would be less effective at attacking because it could not create forks.

In all the games played so far, the farthest span of pieces ever played was 36 ranks I believe. Then the distant pieces moved back in. (I'll send you a link if you'd like to see the game's moves).

Anyway, thanks so much for your comments. I really appreciate them. There's currently several games in progress.

Chess on an Infinite Plane (hidden). Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Mar 8, 2017 11:46 PM UTC:

Thanks Fergus. I replied on the page for Trappist-1. Will you release that page so it can be viewed publicly? If anyone else is interested it will let them see about the development of Chess on an Infinite Plane (if there's any revisions), and also Trappist-1. Both games are already being played.

Thanks so much! :)

Chess on an Infinite Plane. Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk. () [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Mar 9, 2017 01:07 AM UTC:

Thanks Ben,

I did update the images to the CVP site, and updated the links. It looks fine now. This same game was also released with Fergus' abstract icons, but I'd like to show the game with both pieces sets.

The game is already being played with the classic icons (this submission), and some people might prefer this style because it looks much more similar to the normal chess pieces.

Thanks for your support!

Chess on an Infinite Plane (hidden). Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Mar 14, 2017 09:56 PM UTC:

Hi Fergus, thanks for your comments at the thread for "Trappist-1" (which is still hidden until an editor releases it). I'll comment here about the idea of someone moving a chess piece "50-million squares away".

That is actually not a problem in the game (although the strategy of doing so would be questionable at best). If someone wants to make a move such as this, the piece simply is not shown in the chess diagram. There is only a supplemental note added to the game status such as "white rook is in square (50,000,000, 2)". (file and rank of the piece). But in actual play, I don't believe there is ever any reason to move a piece this far away because there is nothing of interest so far out. The piece would be less effective at attacking because it could not create forks.

In all the games I've seen or played, the farthest span of pieces is 36 ranks I believe. Eventually the distant pieces moved back in (or the game is won by one side at this point).

Anyway, thanks so much for your comments. I really appreciate them. There's currently several games in progress. I hope you'll be able to release the game instructions soon. Other people may have good comments too, and it will let everyone be able to share in the insights that I am learning from the game, and possibly other players also.

Thanks again!

TessChess. 4D chess featuring symmetrically-moving pieces. (4x(4x(4x4)), Cells: 256) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Mar 24, 2017 02:05 AM UTC:

I don't quite understand this (but it looks intriguing). I assume layer A is above layer B, which is above C, which is above D. (correct?)

But what is the relation between the sets of ranks 11-14, 21-24, 31-34, and 41-44?

Can a rook on Ab-11 move to Ab-(any number)? If not, how does a rook on Ab-11 get to Ab-44? (assuming not blocked)?

New editor[Subject Thread] [Add Response]

V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Mar 27, 2017 03:52 PM UTC:

Welcome to the Chess Variant Pages Greg!

An editor who wrote a program that plays chess gives this forum excellent credibility!!

ChessV

. Program for playing numerous Chess variants against your PC.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Mar 27, 2017 04:00 PM UTC:

I noticed that ChessV plays two multi-move variants (Marseillais Chess and Doublemove Chess).

Does anyone have a good record of played games for either of these (either human play or computer play)? It seems the games are usually very short. I was wondering what the average length of play would be for games of these variants.

I've been thinking of trying a game of "Chess on an Infinite Plane" where double-moves are allowed, or maybe only double-moves of pawns, or pawn plus one other piece. A link to the game is here):

Chess on an Infinite Plane

If anyone has info on analysis (computer or otherwise) for multi-move games I would love to learn about it!

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