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Hans Aberg wrote on Fri, Apr 25, 2008 08:57 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| It never happened to you that early in the game you had to step out of
| check, and because of the choice you made the opponent now promotes with
| check, being able to stop your passer on the 7th?

Early in the game, most things happen by opening theory. And if one is getting an advantage like a passer, one should be careful to not let down the defense of the king, including computing checks.

With those computer programs, a tactic that may work is to let down the defenses of the king enough that the opponent thinks it is worth going after it, and then exploit that in a counterattack.

| I think that if you are not willing to consider arguments like 'here I
| have a Knight against two Pawns (in addition to the Queen, Rook,
| Bishop and 3 Pawns for each), so it is likely, although not certain, that
| I will win from there', the number of positions that remains acceptable
| to you is so small that the opponent (not suffering from such scruples) will
| quickly drive you into positions where you indeed have 100% certainty....
| That you have lost!

As I said, the outcome is decided by the best playing from both sides. So if one starts to play poorly in the face of a material advantage, that is inviting a loss. So a material advantage of one pawn must happen in circumstances of where one can keep the initiative, otherwise, it might be better to returning that material for getting the initiative hopefully.

| What is your rating, if I may ask?

I have not been active since the 1970s, just playing computers sometimes. About expert, I think.

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Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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