Enter Your Reply

The Comment You're Replying To

Hans Aberg wrote on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 12:13 PM UTC:

|| So the approach I suggested is to find a set of end-game positions
|| where the outcome is always a draw or always a win, with extreme
|| positions excepted. This might produce different values.'
H.G.Muller:
| The problem is that such positions do not exist, except for some very
| sterile end-games.

There is a difference between finding formally proved positions, and those that have such an outcome by human experience. If one in middle game exchanges ones queen for a rook and temporary very strong initiative, suppose this initiative does not lead to an immediate mate combination - it might be very effective to threaten a mate, which the opponent can only avoid by giving back some extra material - how much more material is needed in order to ensure a draw? A bishop perhaps, if the pawns are otherwise favorable, otherwise at least some more material, a pawn or two. This is a different judgement than a statistical one: a purely statistical judgment can probably be quite easily beaten by a human. It goes into a difficult AI problem: computers are not very good at recognizing patterns and contexts. But the classical piece value system probably builds on some such information.

Edit Form

Comment on the page Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess

Name or UserID: Password: if signing in with UserIDRating: Comment or question:
Format:

Conduct Guidelines

This is a Chess variants website, not a general forum.: Please limit your comments to Chess variants or the operation of this site.
Keep this website a safe space for Chess variant hobbyists of all stripes.: Because we want people to feel comfortable here no matter what their political or religious beliefs might be, we ask you to avoid discussing politics, religion, or other controversial subjects here. No matter how passionately you feel about any of these subjects, just take it someplace else.
Avoid Inflammatory Comments: If you are feeling anger, keep it to yourself until you calm down. Avoid insulting, blaming, or attacking someone you are angry with. Focus criticisms on ideas rather than people, and understand that criticisms of your ideas are not personal attacks and do not justify an inflammatory response.

Quick Markdown Guide

By default, new comments may be entered as Markdown, simple markup syntax designed to be readable and not look like markup. Comments stored as Markdown will be converted to HTML by Parsedown before displaying them. This follows the Github Flavored Markdown Spec with support for Markdown Extra. For a good overview of Markdown in general, check out the Markdown Guide. Here is a quick comparison of some commonly used Markdown with the rendered result:

# Top level header: `<H1>`

> Block quote 
>
> Second paragraph in block quote

First Paragraph of response. *Italics*, **bold**, and ***bold italics***.

Second Paragraph after blank line. Here is some <U>HTML code</U> mixed in with the Markdown, and here is the same `<U>HTML code</U>` enclosed by backticks.

## Secondary Header: `<H2>`

* Unordered list item
* Second unordered list item
+ New unordered list
    * Nested list item
- An URL by itself:
    + https://www.chessvariants.com
- A text link:
    - [The Chess Variant Pages](https://www.chessvariants.com)

### Third Level header `<H3>`
	
1. An ordered list item.
1. A second ordered list item with the same number.
2. A third ordered list item.

~~~
Here is some preformatted text.
  This line begins with some indentation.
    This begins with even more indentation.
And this line has no indentation.
~~~

![Alt text for a graphic image](/graphics.dir/cvp-logo-draft8.png)

A definition list
: A list of terms, each with one or more definitions following it.
: An HTML construct using the tags `<DL>`, `<DT>` and `<DD>`.

A term
: Its definition after a colon.
: A second definition.
: A third definition.

Another term following a blank line
: The definition of that term.

Top level header: `<H1>`

Block quote

Second paragraph in block quote

First Paragraph of response. Italics, bold, and bold italics.

Second Paragraph after blank line. Here is some HTML code mixed in with the Markdown, and here is the same <U>HTML code</U> enclosed by backticks.

Secondary Header: `<H2>`

Unordered list item
Second unordered list item

New unordered list
- Nested list item

An URL by itself:
- https://www.chessvariants.com
A text link:
- The Chess Variant Pages

Third Level header `<H3>`

An ordered list item.
A second ordered list item with the same number.
A third ordered list item.

Here is some preformatted text.
  This line begins with some indentation.
    This begins with even more indentation.
And this line has no indentation.

A definition list: A list of terms, each with one or more definitions following it.; An HTML construct using the tags <DL>, <DT> and <DD>.
A term: Its definition after a colon.; A second definition.; A third definition.
Another term following a blank line: The definition of that term.

Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

Number of ratings: 1, Average rating: Good, Number of comments: 124

Enter Your Reply

Top level header: <H1>

Secondary Header: <H2>

Third Level header <H3>

Top level header: `<H1>`

Secondary Header: `<H2>`

Third Level header `<H3>`