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Hans Aberg wrote on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 08:23 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| Well, this is basically how I got the empirical values I quoted. Except
| that so far I only did it for opening positions, so the values are all
| opening values. But, like I said, they don't seem to change a lot during
| the game. For the complete list of exchanges that I tried, see
| http://z13.invisionfree.com/Gothic_Chess_Forum/index.php?showtopic=389&st=1

There might be some problems here: For the classical piece value system, basically, what one gets is determining balance when the position is positionally equal and when both players play 'correctly'. By contrast, you take a statistical approach, and as you say for opening positions. The classical piece value system depends on a deeper analysis; perhaps the statistical approach can serve as a first approximation.

So the approach I suggested is to find a set of end-game positions where the outcome is always a draw or always a win, with extreme positions excepted. This might produce different values. In this setup, it is not possible to set values as exactly, as equal material means 'always result in draw for the positions considered'; perhaps it leads to only integral values, as a fraction pawn value cannot be used to decide the outcome of games. The fractions might be introduced as position compensations, like in orthodox chess reasoning, for example 'the sacrificed pawn is compensated by positional development'.

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Comments

Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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