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White Elephants[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Peter Aronson wrote on Fri, Jun 14, 2002 04:45 AM UTC:
<blockquote><i> It has two full atoms, half of another, and a quarter of another; this puts it already in the Rookish range, though maybe a bit weak. The partial atoms are the forward parts, which must boost it to full Rookitude. </i></blockquote> Well, as I count it, it has two full atoms, and the quarter of <em>two</em> others. Now, I am certainly willing to accept that 0.5 of the value of the W is due to its forward move, but what I am less convinced of, I guess, is whether the W forward move by itself <strong>adds</strong> that much to of the value of the W to another piece that already has forward moves. It's at least an interesting question, I think. <p> If the Elephant is 0.75 N, and the Great Elephant is 1.5 N, then the White Elephants are about 0.5 N too strong (the exact amount depending on your opinion of the relative values of the N and B). If that's the case, maybe the Queen should be replaced by the War Elephant, Rook + Alfil Rider (RAA) -- this should be about the proper balance, since a Rook + Alfil would be a full 0.5 N weaker than a Queen, but since the Great Elephants are a tiny bit weaker than Rooks, maybe, and there's the Bishop differential, the extra strength of the AA over the A ought to just balance things. <p> <hr> Captain Spalding Chess!? -- Marxist!

Chatroom[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Tomas Forsman wrote on Sat, Jun 29, 2002 09:43 PM UTC:
In the work of creating a chessvariant tournament called ChessWar I came up
with the idea of having a chatroom dedicated for chessvariants and more
spesific Zillion players (since the tournament will use Zillions to
play).

What I wonder now is if there are any interest in a chatroom from
chessvariant players and creators.
It would be a great place to meet other Zillion players since there aren't
really any such place at the moment. It would also be a good place to go if
you need players to test a game you have created.

The room will open during July but I'm very interested to hear thoughts
about the idea.

Tomas Forsman

Multi-levels?[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
SBlkWlf wrote on Sun, Jul 7, 2002 10:31 AM UTC:
i'm just wondering why in most multi-level chesses the boards alternate
their patterns (instead of a constant white in the bottom right), and this
is the only place i could think to ask.  Is it necessary for some reason? 
Would colorbound pieces be affected adversely if the boards weren't so
arranged ?

Anyone...anyone...

Colorboundmost[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
gnohmon wrote on Fri, Jul 12, 2002 03:32 AM UTC:
In Absolutely Colorboundmost Chess, there must be as little interaction as
possible between pieces on squares of different colors.

As a consequence, there can be no Castling. A further consequence is that
you should really play it on two boards, lest the visual clutter become a
sort of interaction between the two colors.

The big surpsise is that it must be a doublemove game, one move on each
color. If you have only one move, and must decide between colors, that is a
form of interaction! (Yes, that interaction would make a better game; but
the absolute extreme colorboundmost chess has to be doublemove.)

Your Q is on the same color as the enemy K. This means that you start with
enough material superiority to mate the opponent -- but of course the
reverse is also true! I see this as a race game (pushing the boundaries of
race games!), and therefore immediately thought of Parton's 'Fair race
rule' from Racing Kings: if W gives mate, Black can draw by giving mate in
reply. (The question of who wins first is an interaction between the
colors, but it is unavoidable in a chess variant.)

However, since it's a doublemove game, an even better alternative is to
make it 'balanced'. W only gets to make one move first turn. 

To avoid interaction, the rules must specify on which color W must move on
the first turn!

Of course all the pieces and Pawns and Kings must be colorbound. (Also, a
game with weak interaction played as a singlemove game on a single board
would be more interesting; but the first step is to define the most
extremely absolute colorboundmost game possible!)

Am I correct in thinking that all these consequences follow inevitably from
the premise? Have I missed any? Is it interesting that this much of the
game can be specified without even thinking about how individual pieces
move?

gnohmon wrote on Sat, Jul 13, 2002 12:29 AM UTC:
Oops. I forgot while I was writing.

There's a specific reason not to use Parton's fair race rule with an
absolute doublemove game of Absolute Colorboundmost Chess. 

The reason is that symmetrical play gives Black a guaranteed draw!

Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Jul 16, 2002 03:50 AM UTC:
An alternate approach to balancing Colorboundmost Chess would to follow the
path used in other double-move variants -- only have white make a single
move on their first move.  I would suggest having white make their first
move on white, so that each player would make the first move on their
King's color.

Once you have white making only a single starting move, it should no
longer be possible for black to mirror white, so race rules could be
applied.

Games and Pieces[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
David Howe wrote on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 04:21 PM UTC:
I have been adding board measurements for each game to our indexing database. Do people see a need for an index which cross-references games and pieces? This would enable listing all games which use a particular piece, or listing all pieces used in a particular game. <p>If so, would the pieces be identified based on their movement or on the name of the piece? We could cross reference piececlopedia items with game items, or simply associate a list of piece names with each game. Keep in mind that building a cross reference would be a significant amount of work.

Joseph DiMuro wrote on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 04:51 PM UTC:
Too much work, I think. I don't think many visitors to this site would want
to look up, say, all variants that use a Murray Lion. Or all variants that
use a Gryphon. Or whatever.

Don't worry about those cross-references. I'm sure you have enough work to
do as it is. :-)

Jianying Ji wrote on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 05:07 PM UTC:
google can do a fair job: <a href="http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+%22murray+lion%22+site%3Awww.chessvariants.com&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&meta=">http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+%22murray+lion%22+site%3Awww.chessvariants.com&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&meta=</a> <p>for example of the murray lion query. <p>a script that query google probably would be sufficient

John Lawson wrote on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 05:07 PM UTC:
I'm with Joseph on this: too much work for the payoff.  Think about keeping
it up-to-date; whoever's job that was might have no life in a heavy
contribution week.  Also, listing all the pieces in a game is redundant to
the actual game description.

If it were done, it would be most useful to be identified by move, rather
than name of piece.  This would be a sysiphean labor.  You would have to
create indices based perhaps on funny notation.  The syntax of funny
notation is ambiguous, in that although it can describe movement
precisely, there is more than one way to describe the same movement in
many cases.

David Howe wrote on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 05:59 PM UTC:
Quite often we get requests for information about a game that (for instance) is played on a large board and there was a piece called a 'Royal'. Now searching all chessvariant.com pages for the word 'Royal' turns up too many hits. So cross referencing can be useful when looking for games where piece names are commonly used words in other contexts. <p>Not that I want to do all this work of course, but if there is enough demand for it, perhaps it would be worth it.

Ben Good wrote on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 07:15 PM UTC:
currently in the piececlopedia, many of the pieces list all the games that
use that piece, even if the piece goes by a different name in a particular
game.  for example, the piececlopedia page for chancellor - moves as R+N -
lists the chancellor from capablanca's chess, the marshall from
grandchess, the champion from carrera's chess, etc.  i think this is a
good idea to have as much as possible, but it also sounds to me like
having an automated system for this is not worth the effort.  i think
we'll have to settle for pointing out any additions to the list to the
piececlopedia editor whenever we see something missing.

jianying wrote on Tue, Jul 23, 2002 08:48 PM UTC:
with so many submissions it might not be feasible to add gamelist to
 piecelopedia, rather I think it would be perhaps be more helpful for
submitters to reference piecelopedia instead, this way everyone add a few

links yet the pages becomes more understandable.

kings[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
martin wrote on Fri, Jul 26, 2002 01:08 AM UTC:
i have a question about opposing kings occupying adjacent spaces.  I
thought this was legal because kings were nuetral.  I was told this was
illegal, they cannot be next to each other because they would be putting
each other in 'check'.  Can anyone set me straight on this?  Thanks

Doug Chatham wrote on Fri, Jul 26, 2002 02:27 AM UTC:
Martin,<p> The answer to your frequently-asked question is 'Yes, it is (always) illegal to have your king adjacent to the opponent's king.' <p> For more details see <a href='http://chessvariants.com/d.chess/faq.html'>the Rules of Chess FAQ file</a> and the <a href='http://chessvariants.com/d.chess/chess.html'>the Illustrated Rules of Chess</a> page.

Games and Pieces[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Glenn Overby II wrote on Sat, Jul 27, 2002 11:00 PM UTC:
I agree with jianying, I think.  Cross-referencing all the variants sounds
like a LOT of work but not much gain.  OTOH, it might be worthwhile to
fully cross-reference a subset like the _recognized_ variants, as that's
where a lot of the better pieces either originated or were popularized. 
(Sometimes that influenced how the game drew enough interest to become
'recognized'.)

An Odd Piece[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Jul 30, 2002 05:32 PM UTC:
When I go to sleep at night, I often try to think about something interesting or pleasant while I drift off. Last night I found myself thinking about an odd Chess piece. <p> The piece moves without capturing like a Dabbabah-Rider (repeated leaps of two squares in the same orthogonal direction), but captures like a Rook. So, mDDcWW or mDDcR in Ralph's funny notation. <p> And I found myself wondering: how powerful is this piece, and what sort of game or problem would it be good for? I has a number of curious characteristics: except for capturing, it is doubly colorbound, being restricted to 1/4 of the board; and while it can switch by capturing, at any time it can only attack 1/2 of the board. <p> It seems to me that this piece is vaguely cannon-like, being more powerful in the opening and midgame than the endgame. It also seems to me that it might be a very charming part of a piece mix. Any thoughts?

Mike Nelson wrote on Tue, Jul 30, 2002 09:55 PM UTC:
It seems like a most interesting piece indeed. Such a piece could be the
basis for a variant along the lines of Ralph Betza's Colorboundmost Chess.
I will post details as a comment to Colorboundmostr Chess.)

Jared wrote on Wed, Jul 31, 2002 07:21 PM UTC:
Hmm... very interesting.  Did you consider the Bishop/Queen equivalents? 
Or even (gasp) the Nightrider equivalent (moves as a 2/4 rider or captures
as a 1/2 rider)?  The latter seems like an especially odd piece,
preferably for use on really big boards.  And how would a king like this
work?  Move as an Alf./Dab. and capture like a king, or capture like an
Alf/Dab/King?  And would a CV in which every piece is like this work well?

Peter Aronson wrote on Wed, Jul 31, 2002 08:00 PM UTC:
I considered the Bishop equivalent, but decided it would likely be too weak. <p> Mike Nelson has proposed a game based on these sorts of pieces -- you can see it in the comments for Colorboundmost Chess. My suspicion is that there would not be enough power in the board in the endgame, making the game drawish.

Mike Nelson wrote on Wed, Jul 31, 2002 10:08 PM UTC:
Perhaps this would make it less drawish:  The King moves as a Ferz and
captures as a King (mFcK) and cannot castle.  The former change means less
force is needed in the endgame, the latter enhances the chance of a middle
game victory.

Peter Aronson wrote on Wed, Jul 31, 2002 10:27 PM UTC:
I think the weakened King might to the trick, though I would express the
funny notation as FcW.  The resulting game ought certainly to be
different!

Anonymous wrote on Thu, Aug 1, 2002 07:27 AM UTC:
This odd piece oddly is almost a rook worth in the endgame.
It still has the can-mate property, except for the rare case
that the bared king is in the secure corner (If the odd piece
is on a1, the secure corner is a8). In the most cases it
can block the secure corner and the bared king is driven by zugzwang
towards a mate. The secure spots left by the odd piece are all 
single fields without secure neighbours -- thus a bare king must leave
them.

--J'org Knappen

Peter Aronson wrote on Thu, Aug 1, 2002 05:20 PM UTC:
Jörg, I'm not sure about the can-mate part. It seems to me that in a lot of situations the piece would result in stalemate, not mate. <p><hr><p> Mike, I threw together a crude ZRF of your game last night -- it seems to play OK. But I was wondering if stalemate ought to be a loss instead of a draw, as the nature of the game makes it more likely, as does, unfortunately, changing the King from WF to FcW. <p> By the way, do you have a name for it?

Mike Nelson wrote on Thu, Aug 1, 2002 05:25 PM UTC:
No, the odd piece does not have the 'can-mate' property.  If the odd piece
(mDDcR) is on the seventh rank holding the bare enemy K on the eighth
while the friendly K moves in, the odd piece can't move to the eighth rank
to mate! If the odd piece is on the sixth rank, it can't hold the enemy K
on the eighth--the whole seventh rank is safe.

Two of the odd pieces, one on a even-numbered rank (or file) and one on an
odd-numbered rank (or file) should mate easily.

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