Comments by CharlesDaniel
I am afraid that I have to agree with George Duke's well articulated POOR comment. RN and BN too powerful on an 8x8 board with only 8 pawns to 10 pieces. Disagree with George only in that I believe Omega plays excellent compared to this shoddy little variant getting a bit too much publicity. Here s an improvement using the drop concept in this game: use Joyce's short range war machine/knight and elephant/knight compounds instead for a more balanced game. So Excellent for the whole drop concept (though I would prefer that the player pay the price of 1 move to bring in a piece), and Poor in piece selection. I understand the enthusiasm of previous commentators of bringing in new pieces via gating but why use a knight compound anyway: Just drop a real Elephant (modern type) and war machine/wazir and maybe 2 ninja pawns - thats a bit more subtlety than just going crazy with powerful knight compounds.
My suggestion may sound more radical .. I suggest that for every pairing: e.g Player A vs B they play two games . First Player A chooses ANY game (it can be his own), then Player B chooses his. Player B shall play white (or have the option to play first) in player A's game, and Player A plays white in Player B game. We can restrict it so that no player can choose to play the same game more than twice for the whole tournament. Also, the rules of the particular game chosen must be clear to the opponent. To me, this makes more sense because every player gets to play his/her own game as well as opponents game. And there will be a larger amount of game types being played, with the added benefit that players can playtest their own games.
Take my game Birds and Ninjas. If I use the main variation and add the piece promotion rule (knights and ninja guards promote to more powerful insane ninja knight on opponents rear squares) and 4 ninja pawn drop rule (side drops special pawn to their rear squares) - does that fulfill class X spec? Since I make the drop count as 1 move, does the drop rule have to be modified to be that when the piece leaves any of the rear two squares the ninja pawn must then occupy the just vacated square?
Are they any other criteria that is not met - or does this game work fine as Class X?
My condolences on Space War - I just looked at it and it seems very interesting. Regarding your garage - I sort of agree with you but your idea allows people to play around with suspected 'bad' games and ignoring the thousands of 'not sure' games out there. Assuming you get a group of people to playtest(that may not happen..), it seems the time is best spending on games that no one is quite sure about. So more like a center for test driving new cars or never before driven cars , or exotic cars .. ) And there is no need in removing it from chessvariants is there? Regarding comments on games, there are different directions this site can go. Like Youtube which is essentially (in my opinion) a complete spam site where everyone just flames the other videos - almost no constructive criticism. I feel sorry for some of the real performance artists on youtube - they get the worst comments of all. Or like a writing workshop (e.g. critters.org) where members try to read each the other's work and ideally give some constructive criticism. Being a member there - it does work for the most part. Or maybe stay the same - a little bit of both ..) Anyway maybe my point being maybe Joes Garage can do more test drives of new cars or never before driven cars as well . Or give some results of already driven cars ..)
Feel free to veto prematurely if desired!
There is one more game that I'm working on, having done more playtesting on this than any other, called Titan Chess with a 12x12 board - should have it posted by next week. That would probably be my 3rd game.
I would recommend Toulousain Chess
as well but my 3 choices are up .
but I am definitely available for this tournament.
Yes, the Ninja Guard and Ninja Warrior are identical to elephant/war machine except for the jump over capturing mechanism and double capture.
Jean-Louis Cazaux also invented the excellent Toulousain Chess
The Gryphon is quite an interesting piece and perhaps even more so when it is vulnerable which is why I limited its moves.
The Anti_gryphon is also a limited form of the Aanca.
Consider emailing all chessvariant members with an invitation to join the tournament. They may be many who have registered emails with this site but are quite inactive. And -- is anyone going to bring orthodox (FIDE) chess into this tournament?!
And I mean this is a poor joke at that! I don't think this should be at this site unless it is categorized as a joke and a poor one at that. This is like one of the numerous Wikipedia joke/bogus entries and far less interesting to boot.
I will have no problem veto a game, but I need to read up on the rules first - I am not too familiar with a lot of the games here . I dont see anything I immediately dislike as of now. .
>>proposal to completely solve the problem of draws in chess.>> There is no problem of draws in chess. You need to be more specific. Libraries of opening theory analysis does imply that the first 15 moves may be the same for many games - the logical result of cautious players very knowledgeable of opening theory not willing to take too many risks. Stalemate =draw does not address the above 'problem'. Additionally, the proposal throws out every beautiful endgame study so I think being 'respectful' is sort of stretching it. Consider , creating an actual chess variant (opening theory would have to start from scratch) or perhaps a game with changing parameters that make an accumulation of opening theory impossible.
I veto Saving the Standard 13x13 Bachelor Chess
Hi Rich, While I agree with some of what you say, I dont think chess has a draw issue at all. I took a quick look at all the chess games I played when I was active - very few draws. This seems to happen more in the GM level - the grandmaster draw (less than 20 moves) could easily be banned. And many well contested games that end in draws at proper completeion are actually quite interesting - I say just get rid of the draw offer for major tournaments/matches. Getting rid of Stalemate, 3 move repetition seems like a major step backwards so I would nt call them patches - more like deleting essential components. I am probably in the minority here defending orthodox chess but its probably because I am more interested in chess-like variants than most, and I was not too long ago a chess enthusiast.
I understand that it does - but are you a regular chess player? An insignificant amount of chessplayers: extremely talented, and very closely bunched in skill level, and with a lot of time to research / memorize a large amount of opening theory, play each other under the auspices of an at least somewhat corrupt organization - 60% end in draws . So what? ban the draw offer and motivate them to play fighting chess - that percentage will reduce to at least 45-50%. With that skill level, expertise and knowledge - no serious chess player will have a problem with this result. It would be nice if there was many chess variants close enough to chess that they were accepted by most chess players - then everyone would be playing in a chess variant tournament. I believe if chess is moved to a larger board, it would be difficult for HUMANs to attain the amount of chess theory of the 8x8 game. Chess is 'played out' not because it is flawed but because it became too successful.
As a variant inventor, I try to come up with a game that plays as well as chess. Even though I have tried different avenues, my ultimate goal is to come up with a game that plays almost like chess but on a bigger board with a few new pieces. Obviously since its new, opening theory will be a complete restart and it will take a very long time before this game ever gets 'stale'.
With Titan Chess , I added many new pieces but I am very happy with the gameplay though I have to say it is a bit different from orthodox chess! I have tested this game thoroughly, and draws are much less likely in Titan Chess even though you can draw as in std chess.
However, I see no flaws in the original game (orthodox chess) and certainly have no problem with draws.
Perhaps, your see draws in chess as a problem, among other things because you like games with razor's edge win/loss conditions and changing parameters (like Fischer Random but more extreme with random pieces ).
So yes, chess cannot be changed - the game has already been made and too much people care about it. But if another very similar game catches on .. that is another story.
I can guarantee you that draws are not a problem for chess,
And neither are computers - (George! )
There are no new pieces, no new board - nothing .
In Capture the Scepter, I suggested a few changes to the winning conditions as well but it was pointed out to me subsequently by a more astute chess player that strong chess players sacrifice a pawn or 2 to initiate an attack that under worst case scenarios will fizzle to a draw. Removing conditions for stalemate reduces the motivation to take such a risk and thus leads to a much less dynamic game.Some of the posters here still dont realize that the 60% draw will never be a problem for the strong to average chess player. In fact it wont be a problem with super GMs either if they didn't have to play each other all the time! The 'fix' to get a winner is simple - play a 24 game chess match - a winner will be determined.
Similar to this 'proposal' has been posted numerous times by beginners who do not understand the rules nor comprehend the subtlety of the endgame. A more fitting name would be Simple minded chess.Rich Hutnik Posted: ---------------------------------- Well, the highest level of chess represents chess played at an optimal level, right? If it is drawing at that level, what impact does it have on the game? ---------------------------------- Drawing at that level simply demonstrates that both opponents are almost equally skilled. If a win is desired then it is the scoring that needs to be changed (even though I disagree on that too) . For example consider giving a draw less than 1/2 point . or scoring for the different types of draws. However, stalemate is one of the greatest 'features' in chess. Feature well utilized: even recently in a game between two GMs one player on his way to a loss played a tricky move which if not replied correctly would have led to stalemate. I like to give the boxing analogy of a knockout to checkmate. Most boxing matches between equally skilled opponents are actually draws - the scoring is so subjective you might as well call it that . Now if you want a decisive result between two players. How about this: in the event of a draw - the time control is changed to say something like 5min/12second increment and they play until someone wins. Changes to scoring and tournament rules can be adjusted to produce a winner in all cases if desired. Have you taken a look at Modern Shatranj? I believe it has all the rules you would like implemented. Perhaps a modified version of that game may be a good starting point .
To further the analogy - Each round in boxing is like 1 game of chess. I had no idea that 60% of all chess MATCHES end in draws. How much games are played in each match? The solution to making chess have appeal like other sports has nothing to do with rules for draws . All you have to do is to come up with a match/tournament system that ALWAYS provides a winner. E.g. if a 6 game match is drawn then more games with reduced time controls. Kind of like the extra long tennis matches on tv. Soccer games that end in draws go to overtime. Chess matches/tournaments cant do that? I think you have to explain how two equally skilled players ending a game in a draw is bad for chess in general. At worst, it has no effect. If it is a decisive game you want - then let each 'game' in a tournament be a series of games with differing time controls until a winner is produced. btw - boxing organizations are notoriously corrupt too but it does not mean the rules of boxing needs to be changed just the organization needs to be. Perhaps, chess is not being marketed properly but this does not mean the rules have to be changed. Also by definition if you change the rules you are creating your own game so why not just call it another game and stick with that?
What do you think about the second row of ninja pawns in Titan Chess? From considerable testing , this is the most balanced 12x12 I have played. A lot of tactical play but also room for a great deal of strategy.
Rich, thanks for your response. Mybe I am misunderstanding something but your suggestion the capture forward isn't it more like Chinese Chess? I understand this is in addition to the diagonal capture but the problem is you end up playing a much more tactical game similar to Xiang Qi I am unsure of your meaning when you say: 'My take is this approach of just adding capture forward, is probably the least disruptive. ' It seems to me that the entire nature of pawn play is changed. Compare to the lateral movement and upper board capture movement of ninja pawn. These pawns can actually be stopped by other pawns. Is it is an intrinsic property of orthodox chess for two pawns to face each other unable to move . Your ability makes it more like Xiang Qi which is a totally different type of pawn play entirely. It seems to me like you would like to completely change the nature of pawn movement rather than just 'balance' things out on a bigger board. My testing showed that the ninja pawn addition just reinforced the pawns and compensated for piece over pawn dominance.
There may be merit to the 1,2,3 moves any time though some of the changes in Big Battle esp to the king seem a bit excessive. But I would like to mention a change I made to the pawn movement in all my games (including the pot luck tournament games). All regular pawns now have the option of moving two squares forward to the center of the board on the second move, if they moved 1 square (or captured) from their original position on the first move. - This strengthens the pawns and allows them to pave the way for the ninja pawns. This affects the games Titan Chess, Stealth Ninja Chess and Birds and Ninjas. The changes are already made to the game rules on the site. I hope this is not a problem for anyone playing the tournament (if it is we can always play the old 1 step movement on 2nd move)
The 'other forgotten game' Sorcerer Chess has been revamped to allow for dropping of 1 Stealth Gryphon, 1 Anti-Gryphon and 4 ninja pawns.
The game is Birds and Ninjas. the ninja guards are normal - they DO NOT HAVE leaping camel move. All std rules EXCEPT one option: each side can drop 4 ninja pawns as per drop rule spec.
Removing one row seems interesting. But I must object to your 'simplification'. You attempt to complicate the moves of the pawn moves. Yet, how do explain that even 6 year old children can grasp the standard chess rules quite easily. How hard is it to grasp that a pawn can reach the center of the board in one move, and a pawn that it bypasses can capture it? Except for stalemate, capturing the king only benefits novices and very BAD players. I dont see how this benefits the game in general. (note this is for 2 player std chess-like game not for other variants) No serious chess player would take this variant seriously especially since it destroys the game it attempts to 'improve'. I suggest emphasizing the 7 rows more so as to make this a real chess variant .., keep 1 step pawn movement, no castling, promotion rules but revert back to std chess checkmate stalemate /draw rules.
As anyone who reads the description of Pick the Big Piece can ascertain, both sides agree on what pieces they choose to play with and what should be dropped. It is suggested that both sides use the 'same armies'. The pieces in the main presets have all been a mix of my pieces and 'open source' pieces. The new preset with 1 Falcon to be dropped for each side was made with understanding that this experimental preset was allowed by the patent owner for the benefit of others as per comment regarding the use of bison (a piece clearly made long before the patent!). It should be quite clear to anyone that this game does NOT depend on this preset. I have absolutely no interest in the Falcon piece nor its patent - only in 'open source' chess pieces. I only hope that the verbiage in patent does not include pieces like Zebra and camel compounds. A simple request to remove the preset would suffice, which is what I shall do.
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